UTEP FANBASE...

[MinerInWisconsin]

Where did it go? UTEP is averaging 23,329 thru 4 football games. It's that high due to the marketing for the season opener where 2 purchases of 5k that presumably were given out for free. So 10k tickets purchased by the mayor and GECU. Are we now so low on fans that we have to give out free tickets?

It's a bit embarassing to see fcs Jacksonville State get 18-19k per game while we get 11-12k.

I know winning would help but after dominating Boise State I would have thought fans might start showing up.

[Minermojo]

I think that inflation has a lot to do with this low turnout. There's too many families that are barely eking out a living without having to spend so much for a four member family, and then you know how kids are they have to have something to eat there even if they ate at home. It can get pretty expensive. I know that when my kids were little and I was the sole bread winner we couldn't afford sports tickets for all of us.

Fortunately, at that time the Miner basketball was great and they would show the games on regular tv channels, (heck that's all there was at that time). One time I told my youngest "hey mi'jo, let's watch the Miners play on television tonight". He comes back and says, "meh, they always win" as if that was a bad thing.

[Austintacious]

I don't know if my observation is right, but it seems we have lower attendance for day games. 

[KiddMiner]

The bottom line is..................build it and they will come....Coach Price had a shot at building something and for a time it worked and the fans came, IMHO if he had the defense we have now...boy oh boy what could have been.

 I also believe CMP was too much of a friend with the young men (which ended up hurting the team) and I do not fault him too much for that. For those of you that may not know the story, not sure if the player was on his Washinton State team or at Weber State but he was attempting to coach a player up and said some things. The young man passed and CMP was regretful as the last words he had with the young man were negative. CMP has said that was a turning point for him in how he dealt with players. For good or bad we all go through things and had CMP been able to draw the line between being a friend and being a tough but fair coach then CSK may not have inherited a "Dumpster Fire".
 
Duke Keith had the interview and story about the event. Anyway as I ramble on I am grateful for the excitement CMP brought to the 915 though short lived, he made it fun, and proved the "El Paso is too poor to buy FB Tickets" belief is a false flag'

Just win baby.

[kyyote]

The people of El Paso would love to support the team.  The people of El Paso are starving for winning sports to claim as their own.  Paul used to pack the house and set attendance records so much that they built him a stadium in the Northeast.  Before Price, UTEP football was like a Native American Reservation slot machine.  Paid off just enough to keep the money coming in.  Price packed the house on just the thought of winning that might happen.  Seriously.  Does El Paso want a winner?  C'mon, man!  He won and he played an exciting style of football.  High risk, and high reward.  And packed the house!  Kugler almost seemed to be out to prove Price wrong.  Back to old school b10 football.  Well, how about the MAC!  Power football!  No more duck and cluck.  So, Kugler went with boring and losing.  Boring is fine if you are winning.  But if you are losing, AND it's hard to watch because of the stupidity and frustration, it can wear on you.  Like for the past too many years watching UTEP has been like getting kicked in the nuts.  After the first few years of it, you don't really want to drive to the stadium to keep getting them kicked in person.  Here is the icing on the cake.  In the last few years, UTEP has decided that you need to pony up a bit more to have your nuts kicked in the stadium.  That is straight outta Bizarro land.  Oh, then add in some covid, players exodus, musical chairs for the teams and conferences, a recession, the country ripping in two, distribution methods and the newly found love for staying at home, and perhaps finally it may just be money not as disposable as in the past people just aren't willing to come out to watch a loser or even a potential loser/potential winner.  One last thing.  I have given up so much because I have learned, slowly unfortunately, that UTEP not only doesn't care, they are happy with it.  An Athletic Department is a necessary evil to be able to claim the level of an institution they want.  Fine!  We'll have a football team, but we aren't going to waste any money on it.  The Conference has been decimated and what have you heard about it from UTEP leadership or coaching?  Do any of those fine folks think it is a problem that UTSA started up from scratch and just blew our doors off in a few short years.  Embarrassed?  I mean seriously, we were actually in athletic competition OF PROGRAMS!  And they passed us like a dragster passing a toddler on a trike.  In University circles that has to be humiliating.  Y'all think about going to the CUSA conference meetings as the head coach and meeting with the other coaches year after year, just sucking their shit up because that what your team is- a shit sponge.  Everyone's whore.  Go have some fun and leave five bucks on the table.  Then half of the coaches tell you they won't be banging you any more because they have found much better than your skanky ass.   

[SisyphusMiner]

One last thing.  I have given up so much because I have learned, slowly unfortunately, that UTEP not only doesn't care, they are happy with it

This is the problem, and why should I care if they don't?


Regarding attendance, would consistent 4-7 win seasons be enough to bring fans in?  I think that will be the typical range for Dimel.  A bowl every couple years.  A 6-6 or 7-5 season about half the time.  With the right mix of personnel we could be top 4 of the conference.  He isn't a good enough coach to win a conference title even if he had the players.   Are we OK with that?  I'll bet Wilson and Senter are

[kyyote]

Those two don't care.  Have you ever heard a word from them about the football team not up to standards acceptable to them?  Have you heard any anything from them about doing better, any worries from them about conference affiliation?  Anything?  Nope,  People doing a job and cashing paychecks.

I care.  They just work there.  They have absolutely no reason to care other than it is where they work.  Wilson, Senter, and Dimel are hired hands.    You think Dimel is bragging to his buddies about being the UTEP coach?  Did UTSA bring in some unwanted retread for a golden parachute few years before he's retired officially?  Were the UTSA waiting through winless or 1 win seasons trusting a process, or were they committed to putting a competitive program on the field?  We get our coaches from the Savers.  We spent a decade on an unproven, untested coach and a retread who was tested long ago and found to be not good enough to keep the job-twice.

2004 6 5-1-0 247,256 41,209
2005 6 5-1-0 287,394 47,899
2006 6 3-3-0 254,662 42,444
2007 6 3-3-0 219,411 36,568
2008 6 3-3-0 223,778 37,296
2009 6 3-3-0 174,058 29,010
2010 6 5-1-0 176,097 29,350
2011 6 3-3-0 158,986 26,498
2012 6 2-4-0 176,244 29,374
2013 5 1-4-0 141,877 28,375

Kugler
2014 6 5-1-0 170,260 28,377
2015 5 3-2-0 116,058 23,212
2016 7 3-4-0 161,004 23,001
2017 5 0-5-0 97,740 19,548
Dimel
2018 6 0-6-0 84,931 14,155
2019 6 1-5-0 102,558 17,093
2020* 2 2-0-0 12,103 6,051
2021  7 6

The attendance figures show that Price left the attendance even in the last year just below 30k.  His big years he was averaging 40+k.
Kugler dropped it to an average of under 20k and Dimel has dropped another 4 or 5k tickets a game.  So, in the years since Price the attendance has fallen to half of what Price was bringing in when he was at his worst.  Kugler and Dimel have put UTEP in a coma.  And Senter and Wilson smile and raise ticket prices.  How many of us could keep our jobs with those kinds of results?  Not a word from them.  No problem here, folks. 

Let me leave you with this.  Under the combined efforts of Kugler and Dimel during the 9 years they have headed things up, the Miners won 30 games.  They lost 76 during that time.  Win two games and lose 5.   Rinse and repeat.  Over and over.  And they got two extensions because this was considered good.  Ask yourself just how fucked things are at UTEP that winning two and losing five gets you contract extensions. Is that how it would be where you work.
"Well, Mr. Evans, 10 of your students passed the state tests and 20 failed.  Congratulations and we look forward to seing you back next year!"   Yeah, right. 

[kyyote]

Here is some more numbers to consider.  At $20 per ticket times 40 thousand people generates $800,000.  Times 5 home games equals $4 million.  For 5 years that is 20 million dollars.
Now let's look at $20 a ticket times 15k people.  That generates $300,000 and multiply that times 5 home games a year for 5 years generates $7.5 million.

Twelve and a half million dollars available(easy) and we are trying to get 15thousand people in the seats in order to lose about 3 million dollars a year. 

If UTEP spent 2 million to hire a name coach, to show it was serious about winning football, it would generate, at $20 a ticket and 45 thousand in the seats it would take three games to pay his salary and make an additional $700,000.  Put that in a savings account.  Now, play the other two home games and make another 1.8 million dollars.  Put it in the savings account.  You now have 2.5 million dollars you didn't want to make with Kugler or Dimel.  You can use it to pay next year's contract and start collecting gravy money.  In 5 years you paid him 10 million to make 20 million.  You have money for buyouts if you have to.  But the people of El Paso now know that you are serious about football.  Buy in.  Generates tons of business money and builds a positive image of the great school.

Keep doing what we do.  Ten thousand attendance times $20 a ticket is two hundred thousand.  Times 5 games and we barely have enough to pay Dimel for his shit show.  After 5 years what do you have in the savings account? 

I know I have simplified a complex problem, but some things aren't that complicated.   A new car that lasts for ten years or five rent-a-wrecks during the same ten years.  The wrecks cost more in the long run and instead of a new car representing who you are, the wrecks represent who you are.  Imagine being a ral estate salesman and how much money that would cost you in lost sales and customers. 

[Minermojo]

To put it into words that describe UTEP to a tee is making a comparison between what Chicos Tacos used to do and now do. In the olden days Chicos had some really cheap prices for it's "food" (in some minds the food sucks and maybe it's not the best) and the place was ALWAYS full. You might not like Chicos but it is what it is. A lot of people (me included) have a taste for it's "food".

So, now Chicos has raised it's prices so much that you might as well spend that money on a "good to great meal" someplace else...and talk about the service the people that work there couldn't give a Schiff whether you're happy with the service or not. You've already paid for the food and you'll get it when you get it.

It's the same way with UTEP sports. The people in charge, i.e., AD, coaches and president couldn't care less if you're paying more for Chicos type sports and getting the same crappy product. If they had any sense they'd almost give away the tickets and hope that they'd could pull even with the cost of putting on a game. Perhaps, if they start winning you'd get more fans and people that start liking UTEP sports and continue the tradition of attending.

In other words, people were happy paying cheap prices for cheap tasting food but not anymore and it shows when you see how empty Chicos is. Oh, there's some die hards that still eat at Chicos (like the 11K diehards that go to UTEP games for a lousy product) but UTEP admins are gonna learn that people will not pay double for the same product we've been getting for what the cost was before for Chicos type football and basketball.

[MinerInWisconsin]

Coaching salaries at the 2 most successful schools in conference usa:

UTSA 2M
WKU 900K

Liberty enters the conference next season and recently raised his salary to about 4M. He will make as much or more than 4 or 5 SEC coaches. I don't expect any other cusa school to be able to match Liberty.

UTEP is paying Dimel 800k this year and a bit more over the next 2 seasons.

Bobby Dobbs was one of my favorite UTEP football coaches and one thing he stated was that football should be entertaining. For non P5 schools that's especially true. His passing offense came with him from the cfl. Price understood this as well. People want a winner and an exciting offense.

In the meantime if UTEP had a solid fanbase that appreciated football, they would want to watch the team that dominated Boise State. They would want to attend a game vs FAU where UTEP played well in a game that was expected to be close. They would want to come out and support their D1 college football team vs MTSU this Saturday because their team has won 3 out of the last 4.

I'm not saying 40k should show up but maybe in a city of over 800k we could get 20k?

[kyyote]

The fans have been disappointed too many times.  The upset wins have been too far in between.   Even people who like to gamble don't want to feed slots that rarely pay off.  Miners fans have dropped too many quarters into the slot for too long. 

[SisyphusMiner]

not disagreeing with any of this.  but the situation is what it is right now, so what is best today?

Let's say you can get 20,000 fans at $20.  If you could get 40,000 fans at $10 you'd be even.
The cost to host a game is pretty fixed whether there are 10 fans or 40,000 fans.  The variable is how much you make per fan.  I don't know how concessions work at UTEP games, but I bet the school gets a cut.

More fans has lots of positive benefits beyond the immediate $$ as well.  It's more fun to be at a packed game, it looks way better on TV, it's much better for recruiting.
I say, get a large fan base first, then gradually raise prices.

[kyyote]

I was looking at salaries.  In the P5 the rock bottom is 2.1 mil/year.  Right about at the high end for a G5.  Like MIW said, UTSA is paying to move up.  Yes, they have San Antonio to pull from.  But sticking to fan numbers, and I reasonable to figure twice as many in the seats allows us to double the pay of the overhead.  Maybe even gets a little better.  Back to doubling.  If we are paying Dimel $800k a year to coach in front of 12 thousand a game could we pay X $1.6 mil to entertain 24k fans?  Seems reasonable, to me.  Also, no raise in prices for the tickets.  So, the new coach would have to double the attendance to justify his doubling in pay.  If you can't be twice as good as Dimel, no one would pay you at that scale.  Seen the other way.  There is a reason a 1.6 million a year coach gets that much.  For argument's sake, what if we paid UTSA's HC 2.5 to come to UTEP!  3 years, no bullshit.  That's a 7.5-million-dollar commitment.  Throw in 1.5 million to buy Dimel out.  We are at 9 million.  5 home games averaging 45 thousand a game, sold out.  Partying and vendors jammed onto the concourse.  25 bucks a ticket to be a part of the "Happening" times 45,000 equals 1.125 million bucks.  Times 5 home games is worth $5.625 million.  Three years of this and the money generated from ticket sales equals 16,875,000 dollars to pay off our 9 million dollars committed.  We have a net profit of almost 8 million.  In three years AND we have a top rated Head Coach in the process. We give him a million a year in bonuses for him and his coaches and we still bank 5 million. 


What is best with what today is today.  Do you pray the Rosary? Practice yoga?  Own a sweat lodge? 

Win.  The thing that cures everything is winning.  The next best thing is winning as many as we can but that may not be enough.  Reality? We get a couple more years winning 4-6 against weakened competition.  Kind of like a case of the drizzling shits that lingers. Then probably a contract extension and a case of Depends from Costco.

[SisyphusMiner]

Win.  Yes.

No one pays anything to watch the coach.  They pay to watch their team win.  Winning is exciting even if it's the triple option.  Less fun than winning with spread offense, but more fun than losing with it.

Your assumption is that a $2.5M coach would win.  Is that a legit assumption?

A team that consistently won 7-10 games a year would get 40,000 fans per game in El Paso.

[kyyote]

Win.  Yes.

No one pays anything to watch the coach.  They pay to watch their team win.  Winning is exciting even if it's the triple option.  Less fun than winning with spread offense, but more fun than losing with it.

Your assumption is that a $2.5M coach would win.  Is that a legit assumption?

A team that consistently won 7-10 games a year would get 40,000 fans per game in El Paso.

There are no guarantees in life, but money is probably as close as we get on an open market. 

Larry Coker   At Miami:    60?15  UTSA 26-32 starting from scratch
Frank Wilson   2016?19   19-29  Bowl games the first two seasons and fell off the next two-gone
Jff Traylor   25-9 since 2020 at UTSA

Maybe they just got lucky.  And maybe the coaches at UT and Arkansas where he was an associate head coach were just lucky.  Maybe UTSA just has better pickers than us.  I don't know.  Seems like everyone always has better pickers.  I am not above using the beauty of capitalism to pay more for a higher demanding product if the return is commensurate with the investment.  Again, there are no guarantees in life but when gambling you can damned sure improve your odds.  You study and know the game and narrow the odds down to the closest it gets to being in your favor.